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Chameleon, child development, Cross-cultural, Egypt, Family, Global Nomad, Home, Pakistan, Reptile, Social Sciences, Third culture kid
“You’re like a chameleon”, said my friend, accusation clear in her voice. “You change according to the situation; according to who you are around!” and then six horrible words that crushed what little identity I had “You don’t know who you are!” I was dumbfounded and then tearful. Was she right I wondered?
I imagined myself to be easy-going and compatible but I had just been likened to a chameleon, changing in seconds depending on who was in my immediate vicinity overshadowing my real colors.
The flexibility that I had learned at a young age and that I thought I wore so well was now being compared to a reptile. A cold-blooded reptile that changed according to the world around it, but was never fully a part of that world.
I had also been accused of being an impostor; fabricating who I was to become what others wanted. The ability to change and adapt to my circumstances that had served me so well in my growing up years in Pakistan, and then again as an adult in Egypt, were compared to a six-inch long chameleon, used as an adjective in the English language to describe someone who changes based completely on their surroundings. Or being compared in an equally uncomplimentary way to an impostor – someone who takes on the role and/or personality of another in order to deceive.
But there was some truth in what my friend was saying. I honestly didn’t know who I was. How could I? I felt I didn’t have the capacity to live effectively and honestly in my present world and yet continue to care for and be true to the world I had left and loved so well and so long.
It was a good time of self-analysis. There had to be a way to make this work. Others had gone before me; how had they negotiated this “between worlds” dilemma?
How could I move beyond myself to use those “best of skills” that are present in third culture kids? The adaptability, the interest in the world at large, the telling of stories, the tolerance of ambiguity, the knowledge of pain and what it feels like to be “other”?
Any third culture kid who is living effectively in their passport country has a moment of truth where they realize it’s okay to live where they are; it’s okay to adjust and feel a level of comfort in who they are within their passport country, even if they never feel fully at home. It doesn’t mean they are settling for second best, it means they are using those gifts that they developed through their childhoods and can transcend cultures, finding their niche in both worlds.
The book Unrooted Childhoods has a passage that looks at developing a sense of self that is not related to geography or a place, rather to other less concrete but equally important things. This sentence articulates those things that can come to signify home and roots: “Family, religion, language, memories carried within, become the home these children are unable to return to, a home not defined by geography.”
As for my identity and roots journey? As I was writing this I read these words: “Turns out ‘safe’ isn’t a place you live at — but a Person you live in.”* Change two words in that sentence and I have my experience: Turns out identity isn’t about a place you live at — but a Person you live in.
“All children must figure out who they are and where they belong. Rooted children can take their clues from history, from their environment, from the traditions they are born into. But mobile children, raised in a world of changing backdrops, are expected to be cultural chameleons, turning themselves emerald in the Amazon forest, tawny on dry Arabian sands. To successfully adapt to the transitions in their lives, they must flow in and out of cultures, taking on the colors of one, slipping from the bonds of another. Some embrace the many influences they are exposed to, while others are more selective, adopting only those aspects of a culture they choose to retain. They are able to immerse themselves in new cultures, keeping pieces of themselves hidden and adapting well with frequent moves.But what of their interior selves. Some children deal with transition by managing superficial changes with ease, seemingly conforming to the new host culture but camouflaging their inner lives. They learn new languages, wear the proper clothing, play the part like the seasoned performers they have become. Yet others suffer great difficulty in dislocation and cannot make themselves entirely comfortable anywhere. Without the supportive structures of a place they can call home,they flounder in new environments, unable to conform or blend in with their surroundings. Theirs is not the exhilaration of freedom but the loneliness of isolation. Awkward outsiders, they always feel out of place. A gnawing restlessness shadows their lives and prevents them, even in adulthood,from establishing permanent roots. They search for home in the rhythms of breath and time and in attempts to absorb rootedness through ritual and personal connection. Family, religion, language, memories carried within, become the home these children are unable to return to, a home not defined by geography….
The journey to self discovery can be a protracted one for the unrooted child. The restlessness bred into these children because of their parents’ mobility leads them to seek identity in something other than place. Roots are not portable; these children cannot secure themselves to an impermanent home. In developing integrated identity, they must piece together self hood in other ways.” from
Unrooted Childhoods- Memoirs of Growing Up Global by Faith Eidsea and Nina Sichel
What do you think? If you are a third culture kid or an adult who moved a lot during childhood does this passage relate to your experience? Join in through the comments!
Related articles
- The positives of growing up overseas as a Third Culture Kid (iwasanexpatwife.com)
- “Saudade” – A Word for the Third Culture Kid (communicatingacrossboundariesblog.com)
- Review: Third Culture Kids Growing Up Among Worlds – The Practical Advantage (analternativeeducation.com)
- Review: Third Culture Kids Growing Up Among Worlds – Maximizing the Benefits of a Cross-Cultural Life (analternativeeducation.com)
- Field Trip to the Airport (communicatingacrossboundariesblog.com)

i sort of found this post by accident and reading it brought back so many memories/emotions that i have tried to suppress for years. i was never truly a TCK in that i didn’t grow up in another country. my parents moved to africa, and i to boarding school when i was 14 for 2 1/2 years. as i like to tell people it was “just long enough to screw me up”.i think if i had been younger it wouldn’t have affected me so much. my younger sister seems to have “gotten over” the whole experience.
after graduating from highschool i was so unsettled and didn’t know where i “belonged”. i didn’t live in the same city for more then 2 years at a time. i’ve learned to be very good at making friends; but i’m also very good at “moving on”. my ‘friends’ are forever accusing me of being shallow as i often don’t keep in touch with them unless i’m “in the area”. i live in the present, not looking back and not looking forward. i am currently working at the boarding school my parents dragged us to when they came to africa 20 years ago. it is a big of a weird feeling as it feels like home and yet i am still an outsider. does this feeling of always wanting to be somewhere else ever go away??
Beth – I’m so sorry for the delay in responding to this comment. Your last question is the question I’ve asked myself for years. I don’t have much wisdom but I do have a lot of empathy. I think the feeling goes through ups and downs but it’s always sort of in the back of my conscience. I wrote a post that you may find helpful about this: http://communicatingacrossboundariesblog.com/2012/10/31/when-the-ache-doesnt-go-away/ For me it comes down to naming the grief and recognizing its effects. And being able to live effectively despite these feelings – I’m so glad you came by. would love to talk more.
I don’t know if I can articulate the torrent of feelings that are washing over me as I read your post and the comments that followed it. I panicked yesterday as I saw the photos of beautiful Sri Lanka from my friends that are travelling there just now. I panicked yesterday when I saw the amazing work of another friend changing a community I deeply love in Africa. I’m panicking today because as someone who has prided herself for being able to pack her life into 2 suitcases and set-up anywhere I find myself in a period of my life where stability is key and turning my life upside down is no longer an option. Yet, have I not be craving stability all those years when I looked longingly at friends who could count their primary school friends as current friends and those whose annual family traditions became increasingly epic just by the sheer number of years they have been doing it?
I am now the mother of a bi-ethnic, cross cultural child who is about to take that child and the 5 passports between us to move back to my original passport country and enter into a time of what I hope to be stability and growth for both of us – and yet there is so much anxiety. To feel at home anywhere but make a place I only call home when I’m not there a real home is entirely a new challenge.
Not much sense is coming out of this rambling but it is good, however, to know there are others out there who have done it before me and there are those who will do it after me. Perhaps, the chameleon has colours it has yet to show.
Tammy – first of all – thank you. You may have felt like you were rambling but this made complete sense to me. I remember at what point grieving all the goodbyes in Cairo and wistful that I would be in a place where my kids knew people for a long period of time….and then we moved to New England where people very rarely uproot themselves and I thought I would die. I agree there is a comfort knowing others are out there who understand and ‘get’ us. It’s so hard to articulate well unless someone knows the nomadic life. I found your last sentence so interesting. My cousin is living in Moscow and we were talking online about the “chameleon” expatriate and how the colors change but sometimes you forget who you are.
I know I don’t know you but I’m thinking of you and your very real anxiety – I’ve been there and still sometimes go there. Would love to hear more when you have time.
Hi Tammy,
I echo what Marilyn said. The feelings that well up when stability or change loom can be massive and crushing or reasuring and powerful. It is all very complicated and simple. Sending love, Kim
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Hey Marilyn, (Faith and Nina), I am riffing on your post. Here is a poem I wrote after reading your words…….
I am Here in Time, Space, in my Body
A chameleon, changing, blending,
my reptilian brain keeping me safe,
monitoring what others are doing,
always scrutinizing, do I fit here?
How do you put on
a Jewish Talit? Pray in a Mormon church?
Just watch. Where do you put dirty
paper plates at a garden party?
Are they washing, saving plastic forks?
Just watch. How do you buy a ticket
in a German subway? Just watch.
I imagined myself able
to talk to anyone, anywhere.
You and I have something in common.
Did you live in Latin America as a child?
Europe? Asia? Canada? Work in Italy?
Germany? Hong Kong? I can talk to you.
Do you eat meat? Are you vegan?
Gluten-free? I can talk to you
about Japanese food, my favorite raw
vegan, San Francisco’s Cafe Gratitude,
Thai food at Toronto’s Coco Peanut.
I have heard, “Canadian’s may not know
who they are, but they know for sure
they are not Americans.” But, I am
American and Canadian. I have been
a gringo, gaijin, illegal alien, foreigner,
landed immigrant, EU resident, global
nomad. I have two passports,
fluency in four languages,
and so many more allegiances to home,
to places I feel comfortable.
I am a lesbian, I have been
straight, deep in the closet,
out and proud. I have chanted,
“I am here! I am queer! Get used to it!”
and in awkward shameful moments,
I have felt compelled by my reading
of the environment to lie
about my love for a woman.
I can talk politics, democracy,
parliamentary system, a benign
dictatorship, and healthcare in socialist countries.
I can talk to you, the far socialist left
and the red religious right.
I can converse about religion,
the Mormon church of my childhood,
Shinto shrines and the Buddhism
of Japan and Tibet, the Judaism
of secular Israelis and observant Jews,
a Sufi view of Turkey and the beauty
of the Baha’i Gardens in Haifa,
the Blue Mosque of Istanbul, the Mormon temple
they are building near my home in Farmington, Connecticut.
You inquire, “What do I believe?”
I am religiously eclectic and lean
to the left, my views colored by my experience.
seeing children, hungry and cold, massaging
soldiers injured in battle. I have know
the joy of giving, of sharing, of being
grateful for how lucky I am.
And so, I can talk to anyone,
except about who I am,
really deep inside
and where I am home.
I am not a pretender,
an imposter, a fake,
I am just many things.
I have earned a living,
collecting insects,
saving drowning children,
teaching swimming,
English, massage therapy,
Integrative Manual Therapy,
craniosacral therapy,
and Matrix Energetics.
I am a writer, transformational author,
photographer of onions, agriculture
journalist, entrepreneur. I have
also been a health care practitioner,
massage therapist, neurology
specialist and vision expert.
Yes, I can be a cold blooded reptile,
a chameleon and a warm, fuzzy
teddy bear. I am still searching
for my niche in the worlds around me,
while I live here in time and space,
breathing home into my body.
This is like looking through an amazing picture window onto a view that goes on and on and on and………. Thank you!
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I just happen to find your blog in the course of my work day and was truly touched by what I’ve read so far. I’ve struggled to find my identity for 25+ years…I’m a Korean Adoptee adopted by German/Irish parents living in the Mid-west. Not truly understanding or celebrating my history, culture, and language has left me rootless. But, my husband – Mexican born immigrant with Cuba family history – has a deep rooted sense of who he is and where he comes from. Our kids have the awesome opportunity to be rooted and still become talented chameleons valuing great diversity here at home, Korea, and Mexico. And, because of the times we live in, it’s become “easier” for my kids to be third culture kids.
Thank you for your wonderful blog post. I am blown away at your talent for words and story telling!
I’m so glad you found my blog – even happier that you commented. What a mixture and blend of cultures your family has. I love the picture you give of your kids being both “rooted and talented chameleons” So well said. So I have all these questions for you – where is “home”? Is it the mid west – which is so different than Mexico or Korea?
I agree with you that it is easier to claim a third culture nowadays – if only because the term is more readily understood. Please come by often and leave your voice! Would love to hear more of your story and how you’ve combined midwest jello salads with the heavenly tortillas and mole of Mexico!
Hi, Marilyn,
I’m lucky to have many “homes”…Minnesota (that’s where I have a physical home, a job, many friends, and a community of caring people), Mexico (load, passionate, dynamic, crazy home where most of my husband’s family still lives) and Korea (where my memories of my childhood AND the questions that will never get answered live). Growing up we did have jello salads, kimchee (picked, spicy cabbage), kimbop (rice wrapped in seaweed), pot roast, and A LOT of hot dishes (My parents adopted 10 kids; 5 from Korea and 5 from the US so in order to feed all of us my Mother because the hot dish queen). Now we eat tamales, tacos, and tortillas along with macaroon and cheese, pizza and raman.
Changing the subject slightly…I’m wondering if you write for website and/or guest blog? I manage the parenting programs for an international not-for-profit called Search Institute. As part of our programs we have a web site that launched two years ago and have had mover 1.5 Million visitors. Everything we do here at Search Institute is research and evidence based. The Parenting site is called ParentFurther.com. It would be wonderful if you would consider writing about diversity, building community, sharing experiences, and working toward becoming a third culture kid, family and community. What do you think?
Mary Margaret
Mary Margaret – My first response is that I want to come eat at your house! It sounds an amazing mixture. I wonder if any one has ever done a study on building cross cultural bridges through food!
To your second question – I would LOVE to write for a platform like that. It would be an amazing gift. Do you want to continue corresponding through communicatingblog@gmail.com? Thank you!
Well, if you are ever visiting MN and would like a home cooked meal – you are invited any time! I would love to continue to writing and guest blogging conversation off the blog even if it’s just until we get the details pinned down. You can email me directly at maryr@search-institute.org.
A friend shared this article on FB, then i stumbled across the rest of this blog…
Im a TCK and have lived in southern Africa for the last 10 years or so.
Currently finishing up my Senior year and getting ready to go back to the States for college…Ill just keep it short and say that your articles are a “Word in Season”. Thank you so much for saying so eloquently the things Ive felt and wanted to articulate but cant.
Breanna – I’m so glad you came by and honored that you found these helpful. Your comment took me back to when I left Pakistan and thought my world had come to an end. I have no idea where you’re going to school or what country you’re moving to as you leave the home you’ve known but please don’t hesitate to get in touch. Communicatingblog@gmail.com Thinking of you in these days of transition.
I just stumbled across your blog today via the high calling, and what a wonderful surprise to find you talking about the things nearest and dearest to me! I am raising three ‘third culture kids’ in Switzerland, and I think the ability to adapt to new situations and experiences is one the greatest gifts they will receive from our life abroad. I love your words and your wisdom. Thank you for a wonderful post.
Kimberly – what a lovely comment and affirmation. Thank you! I’d love to hear more about raising your kids – lucky them! There is so much wonder and good in the whole TCK experience. Please continue reading and commenting. A couple of years ago we looked into moving to Switzerland….are you in Zurich or Geneva. Thanks again for reading.
I can so relate to the passage…. so glad I found your post today as I make the rounds of TKCs. I am a blogger, rarely blogging about TKC, but today guest posted about how being a TKC has influenced my writing at a British friend’s blog (I’m an American)…. with very similar sentiments to this post
http://emmapass.blogspot.com/2012/04/word-by-word-scene-by-scene-chapter-by.html
Thanks for a wonderful, thoughtful post.
Julia – this comment made my day! It was a day when I felt significantly “other” and it didn’t help that I had an argument at work defending women in the Muslim world! So then this came out of the blue and was a gift. It sounds like our experiences are somewhat similar, but you had a lot more moves. I so appreciated your blog post at emmapass. You may want to take a look at this one: http://communicatingacrossboundariesblog.com/2012/02/07/saudade-a-word-for-the-third-culture-kid/ I would love your thoughts. Thanks so much for coming by…it’s that instant connection of the TCK. One of my good TCK friends lives in Bangor, Maine.
Marilyn, I loved this post. I have been thinking about just this topic today as I got asked to speak at a MK camp in July. I resonate, I vibrate, I ting like Aunty Rosie’s bloomin tuning fork at the sound of this post! Although I haven’t had the accusation flung at me, I have certainly felt that feeling of being rootless, identityless and of the unspoken accusation of treachery, betrayal and of being oddity for not having a ‘normal’ identity as well as the loneliness of not having a home, a city to call my own, a fridge to open and a family to hug when I am struggling on my own thousands of miles away from them. I remember it well. And now, funnily enough as I read your post, I realize I have come to glory in my chameleonicity. I see it as such a huge advantage. I see myself as a planted solidly on a floating iceberg, floating between cultures and countries but oh so secure and I realize that that quote really is true. Our identity is in the person of Christ and is far more solid than any other identity without him could be. And what seemed like a gross disadvantage when I was in my twenties trying to work out who on earth I was, now, that adaptability is prized, valued, rich and precious.
I realize too that we are at an advantage faith-wise. Other people don’t realize that their identity is linked to where they grew up, to their city, their home, their family. But we who have had what others take for granted stripped away, we only have Christ and we cling to him and he loves that most of all. How many people we can speak to on his behalf BECAUSE we are chameleons, because we adapt to other ways of life. We are expert cross-cultural communicators because of it and he can use us more! You are covered with AWESOME SAUCE!!
What a gorgeous comment – it’s a blog post! “I realize I have come to glory in chameleonocity” …what an amazing word and thought. Thank you and don’t be surprised if you see it featured!
I think it’s henri nouwen who says something to the effect that we can’t go somewhere or experience something to find out who we are, because who we are is who Christ is making us, and is the only secure, true roots of our personality. and your adaptable nature is part of his gift of himself to you, and your gift to us.
Ah – Henri Nouwen is another one that always gets me….. insight born of pain and struggle maybe? Thank you for this.
Twelve years ago I got hooked on “living in the present moment”…it has been my salvation. Yes, there definitely are days when my monkey-mind takes over. When I become aware that there is nothing I can do about the past, except to learn from it…and there is nothng I can do about the future, yes, I can set goals and make plans…but the only thing I can be sure of is “the present moment.”
Trying to live in this reality I appreciate so much more of who I am. Realizing that I am exactly where I am supposed to be. When I can let go of the “I coulda, woulda, shoulda’s” I feel at peace. When can “I let go” of “the letting go” I can more readily except that God accepts me right where I am…the so called “control factor” is gone on vacation and now I can appreciate and be grateful for this…the moment.
Christine – thanks so much for sharing this. A difficult task to be sure but the way to live effectively. I like your wording of the “control factor going on vacation!” Well put.
Thank you so much for this, Marilyn. There is such wisdom and power in the Blended Culture experience. And, we are so good at second-guessing ourselves, never being completely at home yet always being at home wherever we are. It is a complex, fragile, powerful reality, to me. I so agree with those of you who’ve said we must have deep roots, to God, to place, to family, to our inner being….. so that we can bend like the bamboo tree in the wind yet remember and value who we are. Beautiful post!
I’m amazed at all the word pictures that have sprung up through these comments and you bring yet another beautiful picture – that of bamboo that can bend with the wind yet be firmly rooted. A perfect analogy. I also love the words a “complex, fragile, powerful reality” beautiful. Thanks for adding to the post with this comment.
Personally, I consider a chameleon to be a wondrous creature! What lessons we could all learn from chameleons if we could all really see and be aware of our surroundings, especially as they change, and then take on the best of the new. So often we look askance on something so different (what is that quote you love about assuming what is different to be inferior?), when what is different may be doing a better job of living in this world. And personal identity reminds me of “culture,” that no one anywhere in the world has more or less culture or identity than anyone else. So, dear Marilyn, you have ALWAYS had your own unique identity, which so gracefully and enthusiastically and respectfully embraces difference and reflects that difference back to the world. I love watching you do it.
I should have called you when this happened Cath! This is a perfect way to look on chameleons. And also for me to remember that they do this to protect themselves. It’s a whole other blog post! Thank you.
What is the opposite of a chameleon? A rock. Rocks are steady, stable, strong. They are useful for building things that last. Unlike chameleons, though, they are dead. They don’t change unless something comes along and forces change upon them. They can be an obstacle when someone is trying to move forward on a path. I would rather be a chameleon any day.
Excellent. Put that way I will wear the chameleon colors proudly. Thank you for this insight.
Marilyn, thanks for this. One of my very dearest friends is a TCK, and I’m just an Uprooted Kid–to different degrees, I know we both resonate with what you said about the chameleon-identity–it’s strengths and downfalls.
Robynn, I say “Here, here!” to you. After living 10 years in two Southern states, I started occasionally adopting a twang (instead of my blessedly neutral/slightlyCanadian accent) because I got so tired of explaining why I didn’t sound like “everyone else”. Which would lead to questions about where I was “from”…which led to the uncomfortable explanation that I wasn’t “from” anywhere…
That dreaded question “Where are you from”….that sends us into paralysis and finally we end up saying “It’s complicated” or “It’s a Long Story!” Thank you for sharing a bit of your story – would love to hear more.
Loved this comment as it is how I have answered the exact question my whole life. Born in Hong Kong, Scottish parents, lived in Hong Kong, Germany, Scotland and now Australia. I am me!!!
Reblogged this on The Peanut Gallery and commented:
Peanut Gallery: Who am I? It’s an essential question for all of us.
Thanks for the compliment of re-blogging. It’s high praise indeed and your question is spot on.
Nope, she was not right! You know who you are and we all see who you are in your blogs. And you are delightful and fun, and well read and a talented writer!
Love.Love this Pegi! A huge thanks….I have done a huge amount of growing in the past couple years I will say…..
You (plural) have articulated so well what I could not have described… In college I morphed to meet perceived needs and expectations until one night God choreographed all my disparate friends to show up at my place simultaneously! It was a confrontation with confusion, and I ditched and ran! Since then I’ve been learning to touch bases within, not just with others. However, the love of a good friend has recently set me free to wear my international clothing and begin to seem like what I am. We need roots and wings! Even kites need someone holding the string.
“Even Kites need someone holding the string” – I love this so much. I think it’s often good friends that were not raised the same as us but still “get” us that gives the freedom to wear both worlds with ease. Thanks so much for this insightful comment.
wow, what a thought-provoking post. I read the title and thought, “Oh. Something I can’t relate to..” but as I read on I realized just how much I can relate to what you’re saying, only in a different way. Friends have always commented on how I can adjust so well to different places, circumstances. I take it as a new thrill – figuring out how to adjust and work and live in new places, new cultures. But I too have heard those “ouch” words – that insinuation that I’m not real; that I just try to adapt like a chameleon.
Truth be told, it’s like you said: identity isn’t a place you live at, it’s a Person you live in. My identity isn’t the culture I left behind five years ago, nor is it the *weird* culture I live in now, or the cultures I find myself surrounded by each week. It’s who I am. It’s who God has made me.
Thanks again, Marilyn, for a lovely post! Love your writing!
The “ouch” words – so well put. Those words you want to put a bandaid on but a bandaid isn’t enough. There are so many connecting points with the way a third culture kid feels and the way those of us who claim a faith that looks beyond this life, to a better one, feel. We too are between worlds as we navigate life. You also bring up an important piece and that is those of us who do have gifts of reaching across cultures. Although there may be those lonely points, it’s who we are and how we were designed. As always you bring up far more than the post could give – thank you!
Even my voice changes…. I take on the lilt of language depending on who I’m talking to. It always give my family and friends great amusement to hear me answer the phone. They know who’s calling based on how my tone and tenor sound.
But why does today’s post bring tears to my eyes? It’s partly jetlag, at having just returned from an over seas adventure to the monotony of my reality here in the midwest. But I think there’s more there. Identity is such a fragile element. It’s deeply personal and intimate. It’s who we are. I know who I am but it’s hard to articulate. On the plane ride I realized it’s been 4 years since my last over seas trip. With that realization came the beginnings of true panic. I had to talk myself back from the edge. I had to untether my identity from a well marked passport, from a well traveled suitcase. I had to remind myself that my identity is connected to a Holy Place, to God Himself. There is profound stability in that. I live in that Person.
But is it still ok to ask Him to take me to lots more places and on lots more plane rides?
I loved this comment for a couple of reasons – one is because it reflects my heart even more than the blog post. Second because it gives me a chance to tell you that I ask Him everyday for that…..
Robynn, you’ve found the secret! Of course He will take you more places, more plane rides and you’ll always be at “home” because “home is where the heart is.” Beautifully written.
Oh Robynn, Yes, Yes, Yes it is ok to ask him for more travel! He is the one who created our desire and our love of travel and HE is the one who delights to give us the desire of our hearts!!! How extraordinarily good and beautiful and kind and wise and loving he is towards us! I love how you have expressed that realization that our identity can be so subtly transfered from Jesus to our passport or to the label ‘world traveller’ [or anything else we love] and how we need to constantly bring it back to him time and again.